b'Where had you been prior to coming to the Teamsters?Local 144, Pete Ottlie\'s local, in SEIU. I stayed there six months. They had nursing homes and stuff like that. Beforethat I was with District Council 37. I started working there unofficially about 1950. They couldn\'t afford to pay me. I wenton the official pay- roll somewhere around \'57 or \'58 . . . In those days there was war between the Council and Local 237.Although I spoke to intermediaries I couldn\'t go direct. Being at 144 was like a hiatus.Tell us about the war between District Council 37 and Local 237.It was a natural war because both unions were in the same area, they were after the same people. It became more of afight because of the bad feelingsI don\'t know where the hell they came fromJerry and Henry did not like each other fromthe beginning. I remember being an intermediary between them. They fought over everything. They fought for the hospitalworkers, they fought for the clerical workers. DC 37 won the great majority. The biggest fight that 237 won was Housing.I saw at the Wagner Labor Archives a document that Jerry Wurf was using to get people to leave 237 during theMcCarthy period. It basically said, "I\'m leaving Local 237 because I\'m not a Communist," or something along those lines.Can you tell us a little bit about that?That was one of the few times that Jerry was behaving like an elite son of a bitch. It was totally unfair, labeling people Communist. He did it to Jack Bigel, and I knew Jack, from the Bronx. I felt very badly. I apologized to Jack. But that\'s what Jerry was doing. He was going around saying they were Communist. In those days being a Communistwas, you know It could ruin you.You were better off committing adultery. Anyway, that was also part of the bitterness. When you use tactics like that,you engender bitterness. So, you started in January 1968 as director of organizing. What did you do?Anything I wanted. I organized, I represented us in collective bargaining, I was practically the whole grievance section for everything except for Housing. I went to meetings. When I first came, there was bitterness between the staffand me because I was identified with the enemy. I was 37. We had just wonked them in any number of elections. Fromthe time I came to 237 to the time I left, with the exception of the dieticians, we didn\'t lose an election.Were you involved with the strategy sessions related to the bridges strike? It was just a small group of peoplewho knew what was going to happen, isn\'t that right?It was one of the best kept secrets in the union.It was a tremendously kept secret. Who was involved with that secret?Frank Scarpinato [Citywide Director], Barry, and me, Eddie [Cervo], of coursehe was in on everything. That was theplanning.We had narrowed it down to no more than 20 guys who really had to know. There were certain key bridgesand we got those. They were all told to go home and not say anything. That was the night I think when Lenny Gordonand Frank Scarp and Scarp\'s son slept here. The rest of us went home. We had planned the whole thing out, and the District Council was supposed to help us. The District Council had truck drivers, and they were going to pull their trucks67 '